More and more employees are rejecting hustle culture and embracing a workplace attitude called "quiet quitting" in which they meet the minimum requirements of their job.

Radio Advisory's Rachel Woods sat down with Joe Folkman, co-founder and president of the leadership and organizational development firm Zenger Folkman, about why he thinks quiet quitting is more of a reflection on leadership — not employees.

Read a lightly edited excerpt from the interview below and download the episode for the full conversation.

Rachel Woods: I want to make sure I'm getting the tone of the term "quiet quitting" right. If it's kind of "I'm done, hands up at five o'clock," there's been some that say, "Hey, that's actually a good thing because five o'clock should be time to be with your family or do your hobbies, or whatever it might be." And there are others that say, "We want to get more out of our employees and that's not actually enough." What is the right way to take the tone of this term quiet quitting?

Joe Folkman: Well, I mean a lot of people have heard it as the unwillingness of people to give you a hundred percent. There's a pushback and one of my clients over the years has given people additional responsibilities every year.

And so they downsize and at the same time they say, "Okay, now this person just left, you pick up their stuff." And there's some terrible resentment about that. People feel like they're indentured servants and the master has given them more, that kind of feeling of that, we're not in this together, you're being oppressed. All that kind of negative feeling that comes from that, too much of that.

Woods: And I think you're getting at the pushback that I've seen on social media. The pushback is around the idea that quiet quitting is bad. People were saying, no quiet quitting is good because it just means you are setting reasonable boundaries for work that, that client who we're not going to name the name of, says, "No, you need to hire more people or you need to pay me more. That is the only way that I am going to do more work."

And people were kind of trying to take back this term that originated more as, quiet quitting is bad. We don't want somebody to quiet quit, to people pushing back and saying, "No, I am just exerting reasonable boundaries around my work and my life."

Folkman: And I would say that's good. I think when employees come back and say, "I'm overwhelmed, I can't get my work done. I'm committing errors and there's problems with, I just, there's too much to do." As a leader, as a manager, I'd say, "Gosh, let's look at your workload and let's see if we can take some load off of you." I think that's a reasonable thing to do.

Woods: So then what do you want managers to do? What is the right kind of outcome or the right thing that you want leaders and managers to get out of their employees?

Folkman: Well, this idea of energy. What's fascinating is, if you ask people, "What would you like to do right now, if you had your choice? Would you like to have a really difficult assignment or would you like to be on the beach having a soda or a drink and just sipping away?" Most people say, "Well, I'd like to do is the beach," right?

And this is how strange people are. If you look at engagement and happiness, and if you look at people who've been given a very challenging and difficult assignment and then after they say, "How engaged were you? How happy were you?" And they go, "I loved my job. I felt like I could conquer anything, I could do anything different."

"But did you have a spare time and enough time for yourself?" "Oh no, I was overwhelmed, but I accomplished something that I didn't think I could do. That challenge really, I loved it and it made me feel important. It made me feel like I could do things. I'm a master of the universe, that kind of feeling."

So, we're strange in that when we are given chores we don't want to do, we feel oppressed. And when we're given challenges that cause us to kind of dig in and do more, we feel like we are the kings of the universe and queens of the universe and we can just take on anything.

So that's the human condition, and part of this is that the leaders, I don't think you should pressure employees and try to get more out of them. But I do think, if you can get them engaged in meaningful work, in work that makes a difference, in work that has value, in work that they see the value, their mental health has never been higher.

Woods: Yeah. So, I'm struck by your use of the term energy here actually, because having a big burst of energy for dealing with a complex problem, a difficult client, a project at work, a highly complex clinical case, whatever it might be, requires this big burst of energy that can actually help fuel people. I've certainly felt that, I'm sure our listeners have felt that too, where you feel like you're making a difference, you feel like you're accomplishing something, you feel like you're working as a team, all of those good things.

Even though, it is also something that is draining and that can be really difficult for leaders because I can see a world where you want to encourage these bursts of energy, but also the reality that you can't keep up that pace forever. That's especially where the problems start coming when it comes to work-life balance.

So how do you manage the two? You generate meaningful bursts of energy while making sure that employees also have time to recharge.

Folkman: Part of this is giving people control. If people feel like they're not in control and they can't choose, that really affects how they feel about what they do. If they can choose to do an assignment and choose not to do an assignment, boy that makes a lot of difference.

Now, that being said, we all do stuff we don't want to do. We all have chores, right? And there's a certain amount of that, that's just part of the workday. I love to do interviews and talk and do those things and I don't like to kind of go through my email and I don't like to do research done for other people that I don't think is very interesting, that's hard. And actually, I don't love to write, that's hard work, right? But when it's done, I kind of like it. I mean think, "Oh wow, that's good."

So it is funny and it's a little bit like a whole dilemma of exercise, isn't it? I mean, it isn't fun when we're doing it. Good grief, you're huffing and puffing and it's hard, but that's how we get in shape and build muscle. And in order to build muscle, you have to push yourself, you have to give. I was doing it this morning and I didn't want to, but I did it anyway and that's because, boy, I sure feel good when I'm done, and that makes me feel better and it makes my morning work better.

Woods: You brought up this term about meaningful work, and I actually think it fits into the exercise analogy because people who exercise consistently are, even though it's hard, and even though their heart rate is going and their sweating and they're sweating and all of that, they're doing an activity that they like, whether that's running or swimming or dance or martial arts or whatever it is. So how do we make sure that these bursts of energy, not always, but tend to also generate or be part of meaningful work?

Folkman: So, I did some research last week on this whole idea of energy and what creates it. And I found that there were five leadership behaviors that really help you to get that energy. Number one is the ability to inspire, right? Now managers are great at pushing, telling, do this all over, but they're not so good at pulling, not so good at bringing the energy and the excitement and "Gee, we ought to do this and would this be great?" And so that's the first one, this whole idea of energy and instead of pushing, pulling.

Woods: So this idea of pulling is getting more out of people. But what I'm hearing you say, it's not in an Ebenezer Scrooge kind of way, "You have to work until the bell, the evening of Christmas Eve," but how you pull more out of people in an inspiring way.

Folkman: Right, yeah. And the second one is setting stretch goals. Now if you ask people what they want, it's like, "Give me easy goals, things I can accomplish." But when people do something meaningful and significant, they love it, because it proves to them that they're special, right? "Look, I did this thing, I did a hard thing and I made a difference."

The third thing is communicating a clear vision, "Here's where we're going, here's why we're going there. Doing this makes a difference. Have you ever done something?" You said, "This is just going in the garbage. I mean, why are we doing this? This is stupid," right? But that vision and when leaders do that, they point people to where we're going, that makes a big difference.

The fourth thing is collaboration. This cooperative team, you ever been on a team you love to be in, right? A team where you go, "I love coming to work." You ever been on the team from hell? You didn't want to come to work, it was like, "Ah!" But just having that team around you and again, you see this on football fields all the time. People are pulling together and they're helping each other.

The last thing and maybe one of the most important things is trust, "I trust my leader. They're not trying to pull my leg, I think what they're doing is honest and they wouldn't do something that would hurt me, or to oppress me or they're not doing something negative to me."

What we find is if you do these five things, the thing is that this quiet quitting is not equal across the board. If you look at people who don't do these five things, about 18% of their employees want to quiet quit.

Woods: They want to just do whatever they have to do to not get fired.

Folkman: Absolutely, but nothing more. But if people do these five things, it's 2%. Across the board, people aren't quietly quitting, they're quietly quitting most of the time the leaders who are not doing these things, who are not very effective in these things.